Prima che and prima di in Italian with examples of usage

Overview | Examples | Thoughts

Overview

I still feel awkward using the phrase prima che (“before”) when speaking Italian. My awkwardness has to do with not feeling comfortable using the subjunctive mood (il congiuntivo). I always search for a way to rephrase the sentence to avoid subjunctive, which leads to grasping for words followed by conversation collapse.

Prima che + subjunctive is used in sentences where the subordinate clause happens after the action in the main clause and the subjects of the two clauses are different. For example: Spero di arrivare prima che inizi a piovere. => “I hope to arrive before it starts raining.”

• Prima che is a temporal conjunction that helps establish when one action precedes another. It is used in subordinate clauses. Example: “If you finish your homework, I’ll give you a cookie” where “If you finish your homework” is the subordinate clause.
• In Italian, the subjunctive is used in many “types” of subordinate clauses that have Italian names like finale, esclusive, soggetive, oggettive, dichiarative, interrogative indirette, causali, consecutive, concessive, condizionali, temporali, comparative, eccettuative, limatative, and relative. Prima che falls in the temporali type, that is, the conjuction orders the subordinate clause in time with the main clause. (This type list is from Grammatica italiana di base by Pietro Trifone, Massimo Palermo.)

Prima di + infinitive is used for actions (prepositional phrases) or another way of saying that is it’s used in dependent clause when the subject of both actions is the same. For example: Prima di pensare a te stesso, pensa agli altri. => “Before thinking about yourself, think of others.” Another example: Mi sono messo il cappotto prima di uscire. => “I put on a coat before leaving.” The subjects are the same in both parts of the two examples. Compare the last example to Mi sono messo il cappoto prima che iniziasse a nevicare where the subject changes.

It’s important to differentiate between prima di and prima che, which in English both translate to “before”.

Examples

In the examples below, we provide some possible reworded sentences to avoid the subjunctive. In some cases, the rewording isn’t bad, in other cases, it’s clumsy or changes the meaning of the sentence by introducing ambiguity or making the relationship between the two clauses too specific when you don’t want that. Using prima che with the subjunctive really is crisper.

Present subjunctive

Spero di arrivare prima che inizi a piovere. => “I hope to arrive before it starts raining.”

• Rewording: Spero di arrivare prima dell’inizio della pioggia.
• Rewording: Spero di arrivare prima del temporale.

Cuciniamo prima che arrivino i miei, no? => “Let’s cook before my parents arrive, shall we?”

• Rewording: Cuciniamo prima dell’arrivo dei miei, no?

Ripensaci prima che sia troppo tardi. => “Think (about it) again before it’s too late.”

• Rewording: Ripensaci, potrebbe essere troppo tardi dopo.

Voglio finire prima che arrivino gli altri. => “I want to finish before the others arrive.”

• Rewording: Voglio finire prima dell’arrivo degli altri.

Past subjunctive


Stava bene prima che uscissi di casa. => “He was fine before I left the house.

• Rewording: Stava bene prima della mia uscita di casa.
• Rewording: Stava bene quando me ne sono andato da casa.

Hanno ordinato la pizza prima che arrivassimo. => “The ordered pizza before we arrived.”

• Rewording: Hanno ordinato la pizza prima del nostro arrivo.
• Rewording: Hanno ordinato la pizza e pio siamo arrivati.

Speravo che tu avessi finito i compiti prima che arrivassi a casa. => “I hoped that you had finished your homework before I got home.”

• Rewording: Speravo che tu avessi finito i compiti quando sono arrivato a casa.

Era necessario che lui avesse parlato con il direttore prima che prendesse una decisione. => "It was necessary that he had spoken with the director before he made a decision.”

• Rewording: Dopo aver parlato con il direttore, era necesario che lui prendesse una decisione.

Thoughts on learning the subjunctive in Italian

I think my trouble with the subjunctive (il congiuntivo) in Italian is that I learned it incorrectly from the start. Years ago, I was introduced to the subjunctive mood in Italian with examples of doubt and hypothetical sentences and strongly associated its use only with these cases. It is used in these cases but also many other cases as described above with subordinate clauses including prima che. Se solo qualcuno me lo avesse detto prima che iniziassi a imparare l'italiano,

So, when I’m trying to express something like “They ordered the pizza before we arrived” my brain goes oh, this is factual and therefore subjunctive is not needed. This is wrong. I’m at the point in my Italian language odyssey that I know it’s wrong, but usually after the incorrect words have left my mouth.

Goodbye Alexa, I Hardly Knew You (as well as A&P)

 

Left: Our Amazon Alexa spot called "Ziggy". Right: Our Amazon Alexa dot sitting on a shelf.

We have noticed a degradation in Alexa. It’s hard to quantify, but it’s there. Today we went to ask for something we’ve asked for many times and she shoved us into a strange skill with a name that sounded similar. Then, we couldn’t escape that skill. We wasted one hour trying to get back to normal. Not a productive use of time.

Our Alexa (spot) and Ziggy (dot) have settled into answering the following:

• What time is it?
• What’s the temperature?
• Set a timer for 10 minutes.
• Open one of our custom-built skills. (This is always a crap shoot.)

But these queries aren’t that interesting and can easily be taken over by something else in the future. “Ziggy” is our downstairs Alexa and “Alexa” is our upstairs one. We gave them different names because we’d be asking the downstairs Alexa for something, and the upstairs would answer. Our downstairs Alexa (now Ziggy) is deaf, and our upstairs one has great hearing it seems.

Yes, our expectations have gone up in recent years as we experience LLM magic (like ChatGPT), but it’s also that Alexa has lost something. Some say (see this reddit thread) it’s because of the recent reduction of people and investment in Alexa, while others more cynically say it’s a ploy to dumb down the existing services, so we’ll be primed to purchase the next big thing when introduced. One poster on the reddit thread said, “Alexa didn’t lose intelligence, it gained stupidity.” Hmm?

When Amazon introduced these devices, we all said oh, Amazon is going to dominate the home, and that it’s Amazon from here on out, for the foreseeable future. Well, not so fast.

We seem to have two responses when a new technology is introduced:

• said technology is here to stay and that’s it, game over for other technology
• said technology will have incremental improvements

These responses are reinforced with breathless media coverage and marketing campaigns. We extrapolate into the future forgetting the past because both initial responses usually turn out to be wrong. There will be something else to replace said technology and said technology ages quickly and sometimes with no further improvements. It’s best to think of said technology as a step. Is Amazon a good case study for this? Time will tell, but I think the answer is likely yes. (Remember pagers and beepers?)

In the small town in Connecticut where I grew up, we would shop at the A&P. Ever heard of it? Didn’t think so. When we shopped there in the 1970s it was already a bit shabby and faded from its former glory.

The Great Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company (A&P) was an American chain of grocery stores that operated from 1859 to 2015. It was founded in 1859 as “Gilman & Company” by George Gilman in New York City. A&P started as a small chain of retail tea and coffee stores, and then expanded into a national mail order business so that by 1900 there were nearly 200 stores.

At its peak, it's reported that A&P had 10% of the total US grocery market. It was the largest grocery retailer in the United States and the world’s largest retailer overall until 1965. In its time, A&P was known for innovation, offering a vast assortment of food products at lower costs. It introduced the economy store concept in 1912 and later adopted the self-serve supermarket concept in 1936. Yet despite innovation, it closed its doors in 2015. For people living in the 1940s or 1950s A&P was likely a brand as iconic as Amazon is today.

Nothing is forever. And we are not good at extrapolating or making predictions about the future. Until the obituary officially appears, I guess we are stuck with Alexa. As for Ziggy, I’m off to buy a hearing aid for him.

Travelmarx Spring 2024 Playlist – Anti-Rage Time

36 album covers for Travelmarx Spring 2024 Playlist - Anti-Rage Time

Our Spring Spotify playlist (link) is dedicated to “anti-rage”. We’ve seen too many stories in the news dealing with rage (justified or not) and wondered if there was an opposite term. There doesn’t seem to be and when I asked my friendly AI chat bot it said: ““anti-rage” is not commonly used or recognized in the English language. The concept of ‘anti-rage’ could potentially refer to a state of calmness, tranquility, or peace, which would be the opposite of rage.” We like that.

The playlist has 36 tracks released between 1966 to 2023. Out of shear laziness, we arrange the tracks in chronological order.

1966 Astrud Gilberto – “Berimbau”
1976 Lou Reed – “Charley's Girl”
2004 Jake Fior – “For Lovers”

2007 Lonely Drifter Karen – “The Owl Moans Low”

2008 Neko Case – “At Last”

2008 Sophie Hunger – “Shape”

2009 Matias Aguayo – “Rollerskate”

2009 Neko Case – “Magpie to the Morning”

2011 John Stammers – “Idle I’m”

2012 John Maus – “The Law (2003)”

2012 Lawrence of Arabia – “The Listening Times”

2012 Soko – “I Just Want to Make It New with You”

2013 The Magnetic North – “Betty Corrigall”

2014 Liz Green – “River Runs Deep”

2015 Hindi Zahra – “Can We Dance?”

2015 Papooz – “Ulysses and the Sea”

2015 Vashti Bunyan – “Train Song”

2016 case/lang/veirs – “Greens of June”

2016 Papooz – “Ann Wants to Dance”

2016 Ultimate Painting – “Lead the Way”

2016 Waldeck – “Una volta”

2016 Weval – “You Made It (Part 1)”

2017 Gabriel Garzón-Montano – Fruitflies

2021 Aaron Frazer – If I Got It (Your Love Brought It)

2021 trentemøller, Tricky – “No One Quite Like You”

2022 Alela Diane – “Paloma"
2022 Danielle Ponder – “So Long”

2022 Kendra Morris – “Dry"
2022 Maxwell Farrington – “I Had It All”

2022 Nev Cottee – “The Ring”

2022 Panamá 77 – “Patria"
2023 Barry Can’t Swim – “Deadbeat Gospel”

2023 Jon Kennedy – “Monsters”

2023 Loverman – “Differences Aside”

2023 The Clientele – “Blue Over Blue”

2023 The Leisure Society, Brian Eno – “Brave Are the Waves”

Giogo Alto Glacier (Hochjochferner) – Light and Shadow

 
Ghiacciaio di Giogo Alto - Shadow and Light

We visited the Giogo Alto Glacier (in Italian Ghiacciaio del Giogo Alto, in German Hochjochferner) recently on a ski trip to Val Senales. We stayed two nights in Maso Corto at 2,000 m (6,562 ft) - which is at the head of Val Senales, and one night in Rifugio Bella Vista (Gasthof / Schutzhaus Schöne Aussicht) at 2,845 m (9,334 feet), above Maso Corto.

Skiing on the glacier was beautiful, with few people. The play of light - especially with fog and passing clouds was otherworldly. But we were racked with a bit of guilt. Should we be skiing on this retreating glacier?

To reach Rifugio Bella Vista you go up the Hintereis ski lift (loc) and instead of going all the way down the ski run, you hang a right. The position of the rifugio seemed odd at first. Later, while waiting for dinner at the rifugio we looked at the old photos of the glacier and how it has retreated over the years and then it became clear. At one time, the rifugio sat at the edge of the glacier, which has now retreated almost a kilometer away. In winter of course, you can’t perceive this because everything is covered in snow – at least for now. We would like to return in the summer and get a view of this glacier, like we did with the Presena Glacier (see Presena Glacier – A summer visit to the covered glacier). We heard that like Presena, the Giogo Alto Glacier is covered in the summer though we couldn’t confirm it ourselves.

Summer skiing on the Giogo Alto glacier was stopped in 2013.

Nearby the glacier is the site where Ötzi was found. Ötzi the Iceman is the natural mummy of a man who lived between 3350 and 3105 BC and whose remains were discovered on 19 September 1991. The name of the mountain range Ötztal Alps (Alpi Venoste in Italian) lends its name to the mummy, which can be seen in a museum dedicated to him in Bolzano. We first learned of Ötzi in 2008 on a visit to Bolzano. (See The South Tyrol Museum of Archaeological – Ötzi’s Home.)

  

Left: A room in Rifugio Bella Vista.
Center: Rifugio Bella Vista in winter fog, sitting on the hill.
Right: Nearby by Grawand Hotel, the highest situated hotel in Europe.

  

Left: Arriving at top of the glacier from the cable car originating in Maso Corto. 1 km vertical distance.

Center: Chairlifts that run up the side of the glacier with Grawand Hotel at the top.

Right: Skiing down the glacier in fog. Austrian border is just a few meters away.

  

Left: Lunch at Rifugio Bella Vista, a chamois stew.
Center: Dinner at Rifugio Bella Vista.

Right: Always strudel is to be had.


Maso Corto sculpture dedicated to those who built ski infrastructure?

Tavola or Tavolo – Reflection on Missed Years of Language Learning

Backstory ~ Mini lesson ~ Examples

Il Grande Libro pre Scolare - Vado in Prima cover and two sample page showing "tavola" and "tavolo".

Backstory

We spent a long weekend with our friends and their 4-year-old who is just starting to read in Italian. To encourage him, his parents surround him with books and games to help. One book I picked up was called “Il Grande Libro pre Scolare”. I couldn’t resist flipping through it and seeing if I could get through some of the puzzles and games. In the section with pictures and words (broken into syllables), I saw an image of a table set for eating and just an empty table, demonstrating the words tavola and tavolo, respectively.

At that point, it kind of hit me how as an adult we struggle to learn languages because of the “missed” years of learning that this 4-year-old is getting with books like this. I’ve struggled countless times to remember is it tavola (with an A) or tavolo (with an O)? They both mean table, but which one you use depends on context. Seeing the set table for tavola and the “un-set” or plain table for tavolo is a great visual cue that I didn’t think about until seeing this book.

Mini lesson

In Italian, both tavolo and tavola can be translated as "table" in English, but they are used in different contexts.


Tavola (feminine, plural: tavole) is used when referring to a table that is set for a meal. For example, "Bambini, a tavola! La polenta è pronta!" translates to "Kids, (come) to the table! The polenta is ready!" - this is Bergamo after all. "Tavola" can also refer to a plank, board, chart, figure, or panel. “Tavola” is also used to refer to a snowboard because a “board” or “wooden plank” is called a “tavola”.

Tavolo (masculine, plural: tavoli) is the generic word for table, referring to the piece of furniture found in homes and offices. For example, a big table is called "un grande tavolo" and a small table is called "un piccolo tavolo" or "tavolino", literally “little table” or a really big table "tavolone". "Tavolo" is also used when reserving a table at a restaurant or referring to table service.

So, the difference between "tavola" and "tavolo" lies in the context in which they are used. While both words can mean "table", "tavolo" is used more generally, while "tavola" is used specifically for a table set for a meal or a plank of wood. 

Examples

Tavola usage

____ a tavola OR tavola  a ____

• tutti a tavola!
• mettersi a tavola
• posti a tavola
• tavola a vela

____ da tavola OR tavola da ____

• vino/olive/uva da tavola
• biancheria da tavola
• trionfo da tavola
• tavola da surf
• tavola da stiro

La tavola OR tavola _____

• la buona tavola
• prepare la tavola
• Tavola rotonda
• tavola calda
• tavola periodica
• tavola pitagorica

____ in tavola:

• mettere/cambiare le carte in tavola
• portare in tavola

Tavolo usage


Il tavolo OR tavolo ____

• sotto il tavolo
• prendere il tavolo
• tavolo operatorio
• tavolo negoziale
• tavolo verde

____ da tavolo OR tavolo da ____

• apparecchi da tavolo
• tennis da tavolo
• lampada da tavolo
• gioco da tavolo
• tavolo da pranzo
• tavolo da ping-pong
• tavolo da gioco
• tavolo da disegno
• tavolo da surf

tavolo di ____:

• Tavolo di lavoro
• giro di tavolo
• tavolo di comando

Nouns derived from IRE and ERE verbs

Scoprire and scoperta walking side-by-side.

In the post One Hundred (and More) Common Italian Nouns Derived from Verbs : Confusion Over Masculine and Feminine, we covered ARE verbs and concluded that approximately 80% of the time nouns derived from these verbs were masculine. Examples: il cancello => cancellare, il raggio => raggiare. 20% were feminine. Examples: la ricerca => ricercare, la sfida => sfidare. This is just a rule of thumb we came up with! We are not language experts.

Well, the idea of masculine / feminine came back around the other day when I went to send a message in Italian and hesitated with scoperta or scoperto. (It’s scoperata and the associated verb is scoprire.) I went to the blog post above and realized we didn’t say much about IRE or ERE verbs. This post delves into those verbs.

Side note: It was pointed out to me that these Italian language posts are my way of building an inference engine that I can run in my head to apply rules to understand the language and make choices real time. Compare that to our Italian 4-year-old friend: he is using a large language model, learning the language by patterns and sounds. I think he’ll come out ahead in the end.

In that ARE post, we wrote “Verbs ending in -ERE and -IRE and their related nouns derive from the past participle usually. For example, la discesa from discendere and la promessa from promettere.” However, as the lists below show, it’s not so easy and maybe not as common as we thought. The Italian language (or any language for that matter) will let us off that easily with its exceptions. The main take-aways:

1. Yes, some nouns derived from -ERE and -IRE verbs are feminine (ending in A), but there seems to be just as many exceptions: nouns that are derived from past participle but are masculine, or nouns not derived from past participle. Many –ERE and –IRE verbs have no (obvious) derived noun.
2. If you are really stuck, throw an IMENTO or URA suffix on the end of the verb root and hope for the best.

 

Nouns derived from or at least related to the past participle and that are feminine (or can be)

battere => la battuta
correre => la corsa (il corso means something different)
difendere => la difesa
discendere => la discesa
disdire => la disdetta
dormire => la dormita
fallire => il/la fallito/a
favorire => il/la favorito/a
ferire => la ferita (“the wound, il/la ferito/a for “the wounded”)
maldire => il/la maledetto/a
muovere => la mossa

offrire => l'offerta
prendere => la presa
pretendere => la pretesa
promettee => la promessa
pungere => la punta
richiedere => la richiesta
ripetere => la ripetuta
risalire => la risalita
rispondere => la risposta
rivolgere => la rivolta
salire => la salita
scegliere => la scelta
scomparire => la scomparsa
scoprire => la scoperta
spendere => la spesa
spingere => la spinta
spremere => la spremuta
stringere => la stretta (il stretto means “strait” or “channel”)
tingere => la tinta
uccidere => il/la ucciso/a

Deviations
* Nouns derived from past particle that are masculine
† Nouns not derived from past participle


accedere => accesso* (not acceduto)
applaudire => applauso* (not applaudito)
aprire => aperatura† (not l’aperta)
bollire => bollito*
chiudere => chiusura† (chiusa means “sluice”)
colpire => colpo*
contribuire => contributo* (not contribuito, with an I)
dibattere => dibattito† (not dibattuto/a)
divertire => divertimento†
finire => fine, termine, arrivo, etc. † (but also il finito)
friggere => fritto* (masculine, not fritta)
fugire => fuggitivo/a† (not fuggito/a)
intuire => intuito*
mentire => bugia, menzogna† (not mentito)
riaprire => riaperatura† (not riaperta)
ridere => riso* (masculine, not risa but risata)
risvegliere => risveglio (not risvegliato)
seguire => seguito* (masculine, not seguita)
seppellire => seppellimento† (not seppellito/a)
soridere => sorriso* (masculine, not sorrisa)
sostituire => il/la sostituto/a (not sostituito/a with I)
starnutare => starnuto† (not starnutito)
succedere => successo*
suggerire => suggerimento† (not suggerito/a)
temere => paura, terrore† (not temo/a)
tossire => tosse† (not tossito/a)
tradire => tradimento† (not tradito/a)
trasferire => trasferimento† (not trasferito/a)
vestire => vestito*
vivere => vivo*